Topic: Who do you think won the war of 1812? (Read 781 times)

aceofhicks · « **on:** January 17, 2010, 04:02 am »

Now I know the war was officially a draw, with the Treaty of Ghent, but here is my opinion.

I say that the British/Canadians won, and here are my reasons:

#1) The British Objectives were met (Defend the Colony of Canada)
#2) The American Objectives were NOT met (Capture the Colony of Canada)
#3) The British had fewer combat related casualties (1,600+ KIA, 3,600+ WIA)
#4) The Americans had more combat related casualties (2,200+ KIA, 4,500+ WIA)
#5) The American Militia refused to cross the boarder into Canada.
#6) The US Capital and other key building in D.C. were burned down during the Burning of Washington. (Yes, I know that the Capital of Upper Canada, 'York' was burned down in 1813, but it WAS a smaller town after all, and it wasn't like Quebec was burned down.)

So, who do you say won, and what are your reasons?

Kratas · « **Reply #1 on:** January 17, 2010, 01:51 pm »

im just gonna agree with you,you seem to know the facts

M Doyle · « **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2010, 01:58 pm »

well, canada's STILL part of the commen wealth, so i say we did.

Doktor von Wer · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2010, 04:02 pm »

Apart from the raw figures and outcomes, it basically put the USA in its place; whilst the following excursions into the USA had little major effect, the US didn't dare threaten Canada again; not only because of her military defeat but also due to the loyalty she encountered from the Canadian population, who on the whole, unlike the Thirteen Colonies, didn't greet independence with wide arms, rather with hostility. The USA also felt the toll of disease in war particularly more than the British colonial forces, as they weren't as well prepared, perhaps ironically considering it was the US who started the war to hinder Britain's efforts in the Napoleonic Wars.

Arguably the failure of the following excursions was due to a reluctance to pursue them as proper campaigns; Horse Guards and Wellington in particular were loathe to get into a long war in the USA despite a good footing to do so with.

The dismissal of the US nuisance also freed up resources to pitch against the Frogs.

Corusca Fire · « **Reply #4 on:** January 20, 2010, 01:34 am »

I agree. The Americans pretty much lost. Anyone read Ian W. Toll's six frigates? The goal of the war was (mostly) to stop the impressment of American seamen. It didnt work.

If the brits wernt fighting the french at the time, they could have given the colonies a good'ol fullscale whoopin (as in re-integration into the Empire). Nothing like a squardon of 20 ship of the line sailing into new york harbor, as the militia flees from the shore batteries in terror....

Peace Trooper · « **Reply #5 on:** January 20, 2010, 06:19 am »

well its hard to say... the british were killing us... also i thought the british wanted not only to defend canada but take over america and make it apart of the British Empire... (at least thats what i learned in school)
I cant go either way on this one... nobody lost... nobody won... it was just pointless killing...

M Doyle · « **Reply #6 on:** January 20, 2010, 08:48 am »

Trust me lil' noobrooper, it was to defend canada, if we wanted to take back the US we could'a... The french can wait an extra week or two for thier arses to be kicked...

aceofhicks · « **Reply #7 on:** January 20, 2010, 08:35 pm »

Quote from: Peace Trooper on January 20, 2010, 06:19 am

I cant go either way on this one... nobody lost... nobody won... it was just pointless killing...

That, officially IS the correct answer.

Django (sunfalcon) · « **Reply #8 on:** January 20, 2010, 09:33 pm »

Nobody won nobody lost. It was a pointless war.

Darthme · « **Reply #9 on:** January 20, 2010, 09:36 pm »

dude, no one really knows anything abot the ar of 1812 except a few peopl lol
but since i live in the US i cannot deny its awesomeness.

wasn't the Wqar of 1812 basically a carry over from the revolution?

M Doyle · « **Reply #10 on:** January 20, 2010, 10:34 pm »

No, it was the yanks saying.
"Mate, we're SO happy being free, you should try it. and we'll do it by invading your country and shooting everyone!"

But basiclly it didn't work, we heled our ground, saved the canadians and sent the US packing home. and IF we hadn't been fighting with the french we'd have persued you back and slaughtered you all at bayonete point...

Kratas · « **Reply #11 on:** January 20, 2010, 10:38 pm »

to what peace trooper said I say dont trust the history your taught,it is often engineered to increase patriotism. In Britain however theres not much history they teach us that could do that,theres loads of potential history to stir up patriotism,closest we get is the battle of hastings 1066 and that doesnt say much

Fore Admiral Disayle · « **Reply #12 on:** January 20, 2010, 11:28 pm »

Quote from: M Doyle on January 20, 2010, 10:34 pm

IF we hadn't been fighting with the french we'd have persued you back and slaughtered you all at bayonete point...

If you'd tried that, I think you would have failed. We had one of the greatest commanders of our time: Old Hickory, or rather Andrew Jackson. Not only was he tactically brilliant, he was also great at inspiring morale among his troops for defending their country (he loved the US fanatically as well). Though we apparently lost the war, he still whooped you guys at New Orleans, despite being outmatched.

Django (sunfalcon) · « **Reply #13 on:** January 21, 2010, 02:17 am »

Quote from: Rear Admiral Disayle on January 20, 2010, 11:28 pm

If you'd tried that, I think you would have failed. We had one of the greatest commanders of our time: Old Hickory, or rather Andrew Jackson. Not only was he tactically brilliant, he was also great at inspiring morale among his troops for defending their country (he loved the US fanatically as well). Though we apparently lost the war, he still whooped you guys at New Orleans, despite being outmatched.

agreed. If you couldn't win the revolutionary war what makes you think this is any different. Perhaps you recognize this quote "We cannot keep Canada if the Americans declare war against us again," Admiral Sir David Milne.

aceofhicks · « **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2010, 02:31 am »

Quote from: Rear Admiral Disayle on January 20, 2010, 11:28 pm

If you'd tried that, I think you would have failed. We had one of the greatest commanders of our time: Old Hickory, or rather Andrew Jackson. Not only was he tactically brilliant, he was also great at inspiring morale among his troops for defending their country (he loved the US fanatically as well). Though we apparently lost the war, he still whooped you guys at New Orleans, despite being outmatched.

Remember, IF the French WEREN'T causing trouble in Europe, than I would bet $50 that Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, would probably have been sent to the US. Don't get me wrong, Jackson was a great commander and New Orleans was an outstanding US victory but...... Wellesley was just better.

Quote from: Django (sunfalcon) on January 21, 2010, 02:17 am

agreed. If you couldn't win the revolutionary war what makes you think this is any different. Perhaps you recognize this quote "We cannot keep Canada if the Americans declare war against us again," Admiral Sir David Milne.

The British Army (I'm pretty sure) was stronger in 1812 than in 1775.

M Doyle · « **Reply #15 on:** January 21, 2010, 08:41 am »

Quote from: Django (sunfalcon) on January 21, 2010, 02:17 am

"We cannot keep Canada if the Americans declare war against us again," Admiral Sir David Milne.

There we go, you cannot win, tht is the ultimate threat, you may lob some back but then we BOTH go down...
We store ours in Silos on US silo, so you can't stop them, they're already over the coast out of your "Anti-nuclear-missile-interception-system" 's range...

Stockholm Syndrome (pORG13i) · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2010, 11:35 am »

regarding the whole thread, some points:

First of all, the very most important: this is about facts and not patriotism. It's really funny the Americans say they have won, the British they'd have won.

Just a few facts

* IF the French....yeah, but Napoleon DID exist. So you gotta accept the truth that the mainpart of the British Army stucked in Europe to prevent Napoleon form occupying Prussia and at least even England. In fact, the reason Napoleon failed, was Prussia. With Austria defeated and Russia etiolated, the French would have made big efforts, and the huge battle of Leipzig would have ended another way...

* In America, neither the US, nor the British, nor the French achieved their aims.
- the French couldn't get the British out
- the U.S. weren't able to take over Canada
- the British weren't able to show invincible strengh, and couldn't declare themselves as "THE" North-American Super-Power

...so it was pretty much pointless killing. But everyone could regard his fights as "effort":
the French kept influence
the US avert "the British harassment"
and the British fought off the French and kept Canada
..so it's hard to say someone "lost" or soemone "won". they all failed and gained at the same time.

Darthme · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2010, 12:55 pm »

Technically we did win because the whole reason you guys were fighting the FRench was because they had their own revolution inspired by ours which led to Britain vs France.

(And if British Nukes are u=in US Silos, wouldn't you say that you would lose anywar against the /Us without even figthing us?)

Kratas · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2010, 08:07 pm »

Quote from: Tren Krom (Darthme) on January 21, 2010, 12:55 pm

Technically we did win because the whole reason you guys were fighting the FRench was because they had their own revolution inspired by ours which led to Britain vs France.

(And if British Nukes are u=in US Silos, wouldn't you say that you would lose anywar against the /Us without even figthing us?)

he means that at anytime british military command could activate those H-bombs which would devastate america

Django (sunfalcon) · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2010, 08:09 pm »

yeah but you'd need to get them out of the silo to do any damage and the silo could be locked down preventing the nuke from firing.

M Doyle · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2010, 08:23 pm »

British silo, british button. british people in it... Silos are built to withstand nuclear blasts themselves!

So they launch, and if we can't launch we just open the roof and detonate it, turn the US into a radiation cloud, so you all die from that...

AND you'd never be able to prove it was us, at least 5 countries store some of thier nukes in the USA, and obama wouldn't have the guts to fire back..."

Sage · « **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2010, 09:39 pm »

I can garuntee the other countries wouldn't risk pissing off the United States with so much of their Super-weapons on our soil. Just remember that the United States gets some control over them. That would be like allowing someone to rent a house, and not have to pay rent.

M Doyle · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2010, 10:08 pm »

and them threatening to blow up the house if you kick 'em out...

Face it, We defended canada which was out primary objective, and managed to annialate the frenchies too.

But on a modern note.
Do you know what M.A.D means? because if so, understand. its worth takeing oyu out...

Doktor von Wer · « **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2010, 10:25 pm »

We are perpetually underestimated; and for good reason. Our politicians are weak and spineless and manage to waste away billions on the defence budget and yet have such small and under-equipped armed forces, makes one wonder where one of the worlds largest defence budgets goes... Labour mismanagement, I'd bet.

The reason not to underestimate Britain is, that beneath the political inadequacy and squandering of resources, those who are in the Armed Forces or else in service of the Crown tend to be what is left of the old, unfallen Britain that can be found in society... Whilst we have diminished in power both literally and in our outlook on the world, the few that still remain and remember can generally be found in the services that do their best to defend and further us... Alas even we are dwindling, for nothing.

M Doyle · « **Reply #24 on:** January 21, 2010, 10:31 pm »

*Whistles non-chalontly and targets new york*

"Hmm, hmm, hmm, H, Huuu, ... God save the queen...

Django (sunfalcon) · « **Reply #25 on:** January 21, 2010, 10:33 pm »

Doyle take that picture down please. Its highly offensive and racist. Do you not notice the Jewish Star in it with a Z for Zionism.

Kratas · « **Reply #26 on:** January 21, 2010, 10:33 pm »

well i suppose the yanks have some control over the nukes,however they cannot detonate them or stop detonating them,they can merely shoot them out the sky,but we wouldnt need them in the sky.

Doktor von Wer · « **Reply #27 on:** January 21, 2010, 10:39 pm »

Quote from: Django (sunfalcon) on January 21, 2010, 10:33 pm

Doyle take that picture down please. Its highly offensive and racist. Do you not notice the Jewish Star in it with a Z for Zionism.

I do not believe it was intended in a racist way. We do not operate a policy of political correctness for its own sake; and I believe Doyle was just using the first picture of America being nuked he could find.

Sage · « **Reply #28 on:** January 21, 2010, 10:57 pm »

There's no need to be so offensive, however. There was no need to post that image. We understand M Doyle's allegiance already.

Darthme · « **Reply #29 on:** January 22, 2010, 01:41 am »

Although i do take it as sort of an imposed threat for NYC to be nuked in that picture (looks like the big apple)

Sage · « **Reply #30 on:** January 22, 2010, 03:13 am »

It's a 9-11 propaganda that the Jews were behind it.

Doktor von Wer · « **Reply #31 on:** January 22, 2010, 08:48 am »

Yes but who here actually believes it?

I don't think Doyle had a clue when he posted it what it was about.

M Doyle · « **Reply #32 on:** January 22, 2010, 11:42 am »

Quote from: Lt Commander Chris on January 22, 2010, 08:48 am

Yes but who here actually believes it?

I don't think Doyle had a clue when he posted it what it was about.

Ya, it was the ONLY pic i could find for any sort of nuclear strike on the US, plenty on the US nuking Iran...

and sage i suggest you be quiet. If i had any idea that i'd have been offensive or racist ya think i'd have put it up? I've been here 2 years without getting banned so i suggest YOU also think about what oyu're saying.

Sage · « **Reply #33 on:** January 22, 2010, 02:11 pm »

I'm saying it's offensive either way, posting a picture of the Unied States being decimated by a nuclear weapon. Why is it topics like this always end the same way here?

Kratas · « **Reply #34 on:** January 22, 2010, 06:33 pm »

LADIES get over it,doyle was just expressing his oh so obvious love for nukes while also trying to show that america is not invincible,get over it.

Stockholm Syndrome (pORG13i) · « **Reply #35 on:** January 22, 2010, 06:45 pm »

so back2topic, it's not about who would win, it's about who won the war of 1812.

I think the US saw their chance by the main part of the British Army stucking in Europe, fighting Napoleon, to get rid of the Emporers in N-Armerica. However, this try failed. so you can't really say they won. but as usual, there are facts and there is propaganda....and they are not using the same arguments mostly (i.e. Vietnam - win or fail? [shouldn't be discussed..just to think about a "lost" war, were the NVA lost >1Mio. men])

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Who do you think won the war of 1812?

Author Topic: Who do you think won the war of 1812? (Read 781 times)