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[urkspleen]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Army

Info on imperial infantry. For those who are too lazy to read, what you should understand is that during most land battles, imperial troops (different than stormtroopers) were the main infantry unit, and stormtroopers were actually an elite shock trooper unit. Therefore, in the mod we should replace the majority of imperial infantry with army troops, and keep stormtroopers in as a better and more expensive alternative. I'm thinking army troops should be close to rebel infantry in strength.....thoughts, anyone?

[Argonnath]

They are Easter egg or something in original EAW. (or was they naval troops?) But anyway its stupid idea to have even more weaker unit than stormtrooper .

[e^(πi)+1=0]

actually, IAT's are supposed to be just as good as rebel troops and stormtroopers much better; this allows that to be implemented; its a good idea.

[urkspleen]

i know, im just full of them.....

but yes, this makes stromtroopers make a lot more sense

[D]

this actually makes stormtroopers worth something.

make stormies expensive, but REALLY effective against rebel troopers.

[Solar]

This has been discussed and was agreed that they would be the troops that come out of the garrisons.

[urkspleen]

only out of garrisons? not buildable?

[Solar]

No, the wiki article mentioned them being the standard peacekeeping troops on imperial worlds if i remember correctly. Thus they can do the defending.

[urkspleen]

that does not mean that defending is what they were restricted to.

" During the Imperial era, one of the Army's most common duties was the maintenance of planetary garrisons throughout the galaxy, as well as waging war on the Alliance to Restore the Republic."

see? they defended garrisons and acted offensively (quote is from wiki article)

this is also the perfect way to place stormtroopers in their proper roles.

[Solar]

yes, but we can put them in the canon role of garrisons and leave attacking to the stormies. Personally i don't care as it is more work for us.

[Sage]

The Staff are not slaves...

[urkspleen]

Yes, of course they are not. However, it seems slightly foolish to have a requests section and not take requests because you don't want to do the work in the first place. I would understand if it were for something that did not add to the game significantly, but this would probably have a substantial effect. I dunno, i guess if you really want you can put it off to V3....

[Solar]

Hmm, they look exactly like the Officers you get, so not much extra work. Coding isn't a problem so long as a new model isn't needed it is fine.  but they should either replace stormies completly or just be the garrisoned units. Stormtroopers are seen often and these troops haven't been seen at all. BF series, EAW series, GBG Series all used stormies.

[urkspleen]

yes, and it has been the problem in all of them. Stormtroopers are only meant as elite shock troopers, not standard gun fodder. The reason why stormies are seen often is because in many situations that we see in Star Wars, high value targets are being dealt with and the imps send their elite troops to deal with it. In EAW, we look at a much broader conflict with "standard" combat situations were stormies are too valuable a resource to throw at the problem. It doesn't make sense having the stormies be elite if they are the only ones.

IAT's should be garrisoned as well as a buildable option with stormies, with stormies at an increased price and the increased strength that we have already established.

[Solar]

but find me a cannon source of IAT's?

They are never used in films or games. Battlefront and Galactic battlegrounds technically had the same broader fighting arena and they never used IAT's.

[urkspleen]

the wookieepedia page (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Army) lists 34 cannon appearances, 1 non-cannon appearance, and is sourced from 31 references.

[Solar]

Most of those are books, film appearences confirm nothing and i don't remember thei role in any of the games. Battlefront had stormtroopers. the only guys that looked like that were the officers, same as EAW and probably GBG.

[urkspleen]

there shouldn't not be stormtroopers, but there should be both.

[Argonnath]

Rebels have plex and soilders so I dont see any harm to have 2 units for imperials too. So dont mind my first post. Stormys for plex and IAT for rebel troopers.

[Dr. Doozer]

Problem here is that the IAT is essentially the Stormtrooper, only not so famous. We see more of Stormtroopers and they are regarded more as the main Imperial Infantry. IATs are basically downgraded versions of them, so then even faced with the option of getting them as garrisoned troops, it would be rather confusing to the player as to what they're getting.

Leave it the way it is, not because it's truely canon, but it's more regarded as Imperials=Stormtroopers.

[urkspleen]

not really....IAT's weren't downgraded, as they were never any version of stormies. They were just line-troopers. They were different not only in appearance (IAT's did not were full body armor), but stormies received better training, and acted a lot more like marines: they worked with the navy and fought on land.

[Dr. Doozer]

But remember, the mind associates Stormies with the Imperials. Doing this adds an extra unit that probably no one will ever use that still works like the Stormtrooper.

[urkspleen]

imperials are associated with a lot of things. that does not mean that they are the only things or that they are correct.

also, how do you know that no one will ever use them? they would be a cheap alternative, and available in greater numbers.

[Dr. Doozer]

That's the problem. The moment the Stormtroopers come along, people will most likely switch to them, because they are already not that expensive and would last a lot longer.

[urkspleen]

it was established in a different thread that we would make them better fighters, and that means to compensate their price will be raised.

[Dr. Doozer]

But then what does this constitute? You throw in something that resembles an underdone Rebel Trooper. Leave the Stormies as they are and give the Empire some other strength.

[urkspleen]

we already decided that stormies would be better though, and IAT's would be very close to what the reb troops are.

[Dr. Doozer]

So then why are we arguing?

Wait, I think that's my fault...

[Jedi Luigi]

This has been discussed and was agreed that they would be the troops that come out of the garrisons.

Staff already decided, recommend locking.

[Solar]

I can't find that topic again, which is annoying.

I still ask you to find me a cannon example. none of the films nor games have used them.

[D]

many of the troops garrisoned on less than crucial planets in the X-wing series were garrisoned primarily by IAT's. And that series is pretty cannon.

In addition, their existence is not in doubt. The Imperial Army was most definitely not primarily composed of Stormies, but regular troopers.
For example, the prison guards in the Death Star are probably normal imperial troopers (but probably the navy equivalent). So that in part can be your film proof (in part at least).

Btw the reason veers and other ground commanders have a uniform that look like the IAT's is because they are of the same branch of the military.the only thing that would really distinguish the troopers from the officers is rank cylinders and insignias (which cannot be told apart by our god view of things in EAW)

[Solar]

since when were books cannon? not even written by lucas arts. TFU was and that isn't considered canon. BF was and that is questioned. a book by some writer is definatly not canon.

[Sarcastic]

Ughh Solar...

Movies are G-Level canon.
Books are C-Level canon.

Books are perfectly canon as long as they don't disrupt the movies.

TFU is canon as well as are most games and was made with GL so that's as close to a G-Level game as we'll ever see.

Oh and LucasArts makes games.

[urkspleen]

excuse me?!?

not just anyone can publish a book with the STAR WARS logo on the cover! All of the novelists are licensed Lucas to write books for Star Wars....and yes, the x-wing series is cannon!

[Argonnath]

Exactly I would write 100 SW books but that's isn't possible. Back to topic: So I think that is quite good idea to have IAT if its canon.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Army_trooper So there is Wookiepedia link to IAT. Appearances: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Force_Rising!

[Sarcastic]

Exactly I would write 100 SW books but that's isn't possible. Back to topic: So I think that is quite good idea to have IAT if its canon.

That is a bad example.

It's more "I could write a SW book but it wouldn't be canon as I'm not writing with the consent with the guys at Del Ray who publish the books.".

[Argonnath]

That is a bad example.

It's more "I could write a SW book but it wouldn't be canon as I'm not writing with the consent with the guys at Del Ray who publish the books.".

That was off topic not example

[D]

the expanded universe is based off books that fit into the lucas arts approved storyline. If it wasnt for them most of the technical things we know about in the star wars universe wouldnt exist and the star wars community itself would be severely diminished.

So books are actually the backbone of the star wars expanded universe. the comics have some relevance (e.g. eclipse *i think*), but they usually have alot more uncannon stuff involved.

[urkspleen]

i think that the dark horse comics are a level of cannon, like the old republic and legacy comics. but that's not on 

the point is, they are perfectly cannon and would make the game have a lot more sense.

[Doktor von Wer]

Seeing as with my many arguments Rebel troopers are settled - they're inferior to stormtroopers greatly - these could be a good idea. Make Stormtroopers like I planned as an upper tier (NOT restricted elite) infantry unit at much higher cost and build time, and have the Imperial Army as the lower tier, standard rate soldiers which cost the normal (I say normal; everything is more expensive and time-consuming, remember? ) amount and Rebel troops are much more of a match for.

[D]

i disagree with that. that puts the imperials at a huge disadvantage early in the game, because it takes forever from them to tech up to get stormies.

The rebel troopers should probably be quite similar to IAT's. they should be an almost even match.

The case could actually be made that The rebels might actually be weaker because the IAT had better weaponry AND training. 

But this would make the Imps uber with infantry as well, unless you made it possible for the rebels to buy infiltrators/snipers at Tech 2 as well. This would easily keep the rebel advantage over infantry, while diverging from mirroring units to keep balance.

[Dr. Doozer]

i disagree with that. that puts the imperials at a huge disadvantage early in the game, because it takes forever from them to tech up to get stormies.

The rebel troopers should probably be quite similar to IAT's. they should be an almost even match.

The case could actually be made that The rebels might actually be weaker because the IAT had better weaponry AND training. 

But this would make the Imps uber with infantry as well, unless you made it possible for the rebels to buy infiltrators/snipers at Tech 2 as well. This would easily keep the rebel advantage over infantry, while diverging from mirroring units to keep balance.

This would work, but my biggest concern here is then that will leave the Rebels over an immediate advantage the moment you get to tech 2, which remember they work a different Tech Ladder. Once they get the Infiltrator, you would need to upgrade on the Imperial side immediately or you will start to get beaten down a lot.

[urkspleen]

Only in a very linear manner. Remember, infantry is not the only way to counter infantry.

[Dr. Doozer]

For the Empire, it kind of is. The TIE Maulers do some collateral damage, but they are taken out easily.

[urkspleen]

you can do a whole bunch of damage with maulers. With a full squad, just make a line and roll forwards crushing all infantry and than self destruct in the middle of your enemy's formation. The ones that are not destroyed by your opponent first do a large amount of damage for their relatively low cost. The key with then is to make sure that they are always moving....you don't want them to stand still, or combined fire will obliterate them.

[Dr. Doozer]

I find them rather useless, but OK. Different tactics.

[Tanus]

atst's do wonders against infantry.

also, you ever try one of those artillery things? now DAMN those things are good.

I've said it before, the Imps are a tank faction, and the Rebs are an infantry one.  This might be one of those instances where gameplay > canon

THE UNIT MIRROR EFFECT

*IAT's = Rebel Infantry
*That rocket unit for the imps = PLEX Troops
Stormies = Infiltrators

See? mirror gameplay!! I thought that was what we were trying to avoid.  And don't give me the cost / strength / armor argument.  It's just another way to disguise the mirror.

[Dr. Doozer]

atst's do wonders against infantry.

also, you ever try one of those artillery things? now DAMN those things are good.

I've said it before, the Imps are a tank faction, and the Rebs are an infantry one.  This might be one of those instances where gameplay > canon

THE UNIT MIRROR EFFECT

*IAT's = Rebel Infantry
*That rocket unit for the imps = PLEX Troops
Stormies = Infiltrators

See? mirror gameplay!! I thought that was what we were trying to avoid.  And don't give me the cost / strength / armor argument.  It's just another way to disguise the mirror.

This is kind of what I was trying to say from the beginning. You mirror each side. It makes the game...well...not fun.

[Tanus]

Battlefront anyone?

Krystal got it right. 

[urkspleen]

yes, imp army troop and reb would be almost a mirror, but i think it is an exception because as far as normal gun infantry go, how much different can you get?

i am against rocket units for imps because they are a unique advantage for rebs, and would increase the mirror

stormies and infiltrators are not the same. Stormies are a high end combat squad, whereas infiltrators focus a lot more on subterfuge and indirect combat

[Dr. Doozer]

In essence:

Standard Infantry vs. Standard Infantry

&

Special Unit vs. Special Unit

[Tanus]

again, correct. 

[urkspleen]

ok, but there has to be a point where you draw the line, right?

are we not going to give one faction a tank because the other has one? Are starfighters no good because both have them? Can one faction not have planets because the other does?


the answer is no. While it is true that making a mirror image of each other is not good, I think that we are getting carried away here.

[D]

You guys have no idea what Mirroring is if you are comparing an infiltrator to stormies and saying its mirrored!

The basic definition of mirroring is when you have 2 factions, with units that are essentially the same but with different visual appearances to keep balance in the gameplay. Giving both factions higher tiered infantry units IS NOT mirroring gameplay, its just giving each side its particular unit with its indivual strengths and weaknesses (and abilities) that add to the strategy.

What i am proposing is the EXACT OPPOSITE. Stormtroopers are squads of troopers that offer much better firepower over normal IAT's, and can take a decent amount of punishment (for infantry) before dying. They are an improvement over the concept of the IAT's, and in general well rounded infantry that can stand and fight.

Infiltrators are SNIPER units that are highly effective against infantry, but not much else. They are 1 man units. They also have some tactically significant abilities. To compensate for the infiltrators high offensive capability, they are extremeley vulnerable to fast patrol units (like speederbikes or 2-Ms), because they have low HP, and so you have to resort to stealthier/innovative tactics to keep them alive.

Both would have similar pricing on the GC map, but they offer significantly different approaches to gameplay. This is NOT mirroring.

PS If you want a good example of a RTS game that mirrored, go look at Warcraft 2. I know its ancient, but the teams had the same units but with slightly augmented stats and visual appearances. 

[Doktor von Wer]

For the Empire, it kind of is. The TIE Maulers do some collateral damage, but they are taken out easily.

All vehicles will be much more dangerous for infantry, infantry (apart from rockets) less dangerous for vehicles but in greater numbers.

Stormtroopers won't be high tech just more expensive. They ARE NOT infiltrator equivalents, not small numbers of spec forces, rather they are still infantry to be deployed in large numbers, albeit a higher power, more expensive infantry.

Some people forget themselves when suggesting things and rant about what we're doing wrong. To be honest, we know how the gameplay is going to be massively changed for V2 and you don't, because its in development and secret, so you can't know how it's going to fit, and this is a forum for suggestions not your complaints, so we'd rather not hear the rude comments, tanus.

[urkspleen]

so we vote now, okeyday?


1-0

[Doktor von Wer]

2-0.

[Tanus]

I apologize if I sounded rude, as it was not my intention.  Though I still disagree with the idea, I will keep my mouth shut and vote.

2-1

[Dr. Doozer]

I still hold my ideas firm.

2-2

[Sarcastic]

2-3

[rafae62]

3-3

[D]

i am for

4-3

[SoulPain (FanEAW)]

4-4 i hate this idea

storm troopers was not a tech research, when the republic changed to Galactic Empire their clone troopers were differently equipped and aremd, wich i mean by that, stormtroopers. leave it be.

[urkspleen]

That's simply incorrect. The Empire, as many seem to ignore, begins in episode III. The events of ROTS occur in 19 BBY, however the fist incarnation of a traditional storm trooper was not produced until 10 BBY, a difference of nine standard years.

On the contrary, the imperial army was formed directly from a re-organized GAR.

[D]

urkspleen has a point, BUT: that is what the era change is for.

[urkspleen]

even so, it the era change is in episode 3. Even if you did start it later, the advent of stormtroopers is still significantly into the Empire's reign to be placed around tech level 2.

However, if no one else wants them like this, then we could just add them in at tech level 1 along with IAT's. But for now, I think that the previous idea is better.

[Argonnath]

Those red clones in coruscant was called Stormtrooper and there that name come...
I vote yes 5-4