Topic: Gargantuan Firing (Read 807 times)

urkspleen · « **on:** November 29, 2008, 02:21 pm »

When you send the gargantuan to attack, what almost always happens is that only the leading half's weapons are in range, or can swivel around to fire at the target you choose, while the other half (sometimes just the turbo-laser) pretty much sits there unless other enemies come close...I don't know anything about coding or anything else that this might involve, but can someone somehow rewrite the AI (I think that is the write term) for the Gargantuan so that when it attacks, it swing the "back end" around so both ends can fire with the most effectiveness at the same target?

Solar · « **Reply #1 on:** November 29, 2008, 02:23 pm »

Re-writing the AI is difficult at its best.

You can do that yourself though if you make it face the right direction by clicking and dragging when you give a movement order.

urkspleen · « **Reply #2 on:** November 29, 2008, 02:31 pm »

yeah..I've been able to to the clicking and dragging thing, and it works sometimes...it's hard because the arrow is hidden beneath the gargantuan. It just doesn't make a lot of sense not to, because isn't that would any commander want...almost like a broadside, you get the most and biggest guns firing at once for maximum efficiency.

can you make it automatically make it face a certain angle to the target or something?

Solar · « **Reply #3 on:** November 29, 2008, 02:52 pm »

no, it is all based on calculations, getting the most power on the enemy. Are you sure it isn't the best it could be? the power of those cannons it gets to fire against the enemy could be more powerful than just one side of the gargantuan.

urkspleen · « **Reply #4 on:** November 29, 2008, 03:10 pm »

when one "head" of the gargantuan is facing its target, at most it fires 1 turbolaser and 4 laser cannons (sometimes the farthest pair don't fire). if a "side" faced the target, you would get 2 turbolasers and 2 laser cannons. Turbolasers, to my knowledge, do a lot more damage than laser cannons, and more than makes up for the lower number of weapons brought to bear. (5 for "head" on target, 4 for "side".) The net result is that you get the best mixture of number and sized guns if you "broadside"

Solar · « **Reply #5 on:** November 29, 2008, 03:27 pm »

i don't know, check how strong each weapon is and what type of damage they do. that makes it more complex than you think.

urkspleen · « **Reply #6 on:** November 29, 2008, 03:30 pm »

I know what you mean. i would check it if I knew how, but from a logical standpoint what I said makes sense. Turbolasers probably do more damage against hard targets like vehicles and structures, and laser cannons focus more on infantry and light vehicles.

Solar · « **Reply #7 on:** November 29, 2008, 03:31 pm »

exactly, which side it uses will probably change depending on what you ask it to target.

urkspleen · « **Reply #8 on:** November 29, 2008, 03:34 pm »

can we do that? or are you saying that it does that already...

i think you are saying that to make this change most effective, you would need to make it use the weapons that are best suited specific to each target?

if you're saying that, than I like the idea....makes sense

Solar · « **Reply #9 on:** November 29, 2008, 04:25 pm »

i think it already does that, hence the odd behaviour.

urkspleen · « **Reply #10 on:** November 29, 2008, 04:59 pm »

After a brief analysis (I played the game), I have found the following:

My initial premise was not entirely correct. However, I did find problems with the Gargantuan's AI. The Gargantuan displays a "lazy" behavior:

1. When sent to attack a building or non-moving target from a location not currently in range, the Gargantuan will only advance enough untill the point where only 1 turbolaser can fire, or is in range (this will only change if the target approaches the gargantuan, and as more weapons come into range they will fire).
2. If the Gargantuan is firing on a target, and then is told to switch to a target that is already within range of at least 1 weapon, it will not move to fire more efficiently (only weapons in range will fire, vehicle will not move to use more).
3. The Gargantuan does not change position when firing on targets of different classes (i.e., infantry, vehicles, buildings). This means that no matter the target, the Gargantuan's behavior will follow 1 and 2.

My conclusion is that if a change will be made, it should somehow focus on making the Gargantuan more aggressive and efficient.

(this analysis is drawn from brief gameplay. If anyone finds something different, please post it)

Tanus · « **Reply #11 on:** November 30, 2008, 01:28 am »

Quote from: urkspleen on November 29, 2008, 04:59 pm

After a brief analysis (I played the game), I have found the following:

My initial premise was not entirely correct. However, I did find problems with the Gargantuan's AI. The Gargantuan displays a "lazy" behavior:

1. When sent to attack a building or non-moving target from a location not currently in range, the Gargantuan will only advance enough untill the point where only 1 turbolaser can fire, or is in range (this will only change if the target approaches the gargantuan, and as more weapons come into range they will fire).
2. If the Gargantuan is firing on a target, and then is told to switch to a target that is already within range of at least 1 weapon, it will not move to fire more efficiently (only weapons in range will fire, vehicle will not move to use more).
3. The Gargantuan does not change position when firing on targets of different classes (i.e., infantry, vehicles, buildings). This means that no matter the target, the Gargantuan's behavior will follow 1 and 2.

My conclusion is that if a change will be made, it should somehow focus on making the Gargantuan more aggressive and efficient.

(this analysis is drawn from brief gameplay. If anyone finds something different, please post it)

I tested, and found the exact same as you. Damn thing sure is lazy! Anywho, I tried moving it around manually when I wanted it to kill something else, which worked ok, it just isn't practical.

Is there any way that any of you know of to fix this?

urkspleen · « **Reply #12 on:** November 30, 2008, 02:07 am »

like I said, I know nothing of modding...this is something to ask a mod-team member or experienced user...

Solar · « **Reply #13 on:** November 30, 2008, 11:07 am »

Unfortunatly to get it to work properly is difficult.

Remember that i, a 16 year old teenager, would have to try and simulate a master tactician using complex maths to work out all the figures. Not to mention i am not that good at LUA yet,

urkspleen · « **Reply #14 on:** November 30, 2008, 03:18 pm »

Is there anyone else who can help you?

maybe distribute the math to people, have them solve it, and give it back to you?

Solar · « **Reply #15 on:** November 30, 2008, 04:24 pm »

The math could be distributed but only Mike knows the LUA to do it and his maths is more than capable so not really.

urkspleen · « **Reply #16 on:** November 30, 2008, 05:03 pm »

not really meaning what?....meaning that it can't be done?

Solar · « **Reply #17 on:** November 30, 2008, 05:23 pm »

meaning that it would be pointless distributing the maths,

urkspleen · « **Reply #18 on:** November 30, 2008, 05:29 pm »

ok....is this change still on the slightest possible way feasible?

Solar · « **Reply #19 on:** November 30, 2008, 06:23 pm »

possibly, but it is a lot of work.

Sarcastic · « **Reply #20 on:** November 30, 2008, 06:32 pm »

Change for V3 then I guess?

e^(πi)+1=0 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 02, 2008, 10:25 pm »

why don't you just order it to broadside? this is a micro-managing mechanic, just like cap ships not auto-broadsiding if it advantageous to do so.

Corusca Fire · « **Reply #22 on:** December 02, 2008, 10:26 pm »

Order it to what? You can do that?

e^(πi)+1=0 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 02, 2008, 10:33 pm »

order it to the side a bit once its in range, and it broadsides it; once it gets there, it stays in the same orientation.

urkspleen · « **Reply #24 on:** December 02, 2008, 10:42 pm »

this is only a temporary fix, and that does not address what the AI should do when it plays against you....

e^(πi)+1=0 · « **Reply #25 on:** December 02, 2008, 10:52 pm »

i concede that the AI could use this ability, but otherwise, its the player's responsibility to ensure that their units are in position.

Corusca Fire · « **Reply #26 on:** December 02, 2008, 10:53 pm »

You know what would be nice? A hold fire ability.

Tanus · « **Reply #27 on:** December 04, 2008, 02:45 am »

could be handy. maybe as one of those move, stop, attack move things. Don't know if it's possible though.

leave the Gargantuan be. micromanaging is a skill to be learned.

urkspleen · « **Reply #28 on:** December 04, 2008, 04:31 am »

like I said, this does not help the AI that plays against you....its not fun or challenging to fight "stupid" opponents.

Mandalor Vipeer · « **Reply #29 on:** December 04, 2008, 04:37 am »

I agree to that, but you can order it to basically do a broadside. People who click around like me can do it, but you've gotta get good with it before it starts working. (I've worn out 2 mice because I move a unit based on steps not where I click for them to go long range. I click around 200 times a minute when I'm playing, and that's while I'm thinking. I can go faster when I want to. You should have heard Mirshe the other day when I was playing during lab. After picked his jaw up he constantly asked me if I had to move and work so fast. Everytime I slowed down a little, I ended up speeding up faster. He couldn't keep up with me. It was hilarious)

Tanus · « **Reply #30 on:** December 04, 2008, 04:40 am »

you may want to consider the olympics. 200 a minute sounds intense.

but on the topic, I have no idea about how the AI works, crank her up to medium or down to hard, see if that changes anything.

urkspleen · « **Reply #31 on:** December 04, 2008, 04:46 am »

Quote from: Tanus on December 04, 2008, 04:40 am

but on the topic, I have no idea about how the AI works, crank her up to medium or down to hard, see if that changes anything.

We're referring to the AI in different ways:

the way you're using it is as the controller of your opponent's units

the way I'm using it is as the logic that governs a particular unit's behavior

the difficulty wont effect the behavior of an individual unit....just a group's coordination and damage, etc.

Mandalor Vipeer · « **Reply #32 on:** December 04, 2008, 04:47 am »

It does get pretty intense. I really get into my battles because I like to control every little thing my units do. And if I can't control it, I find a way around it.

But anyway, I think the AI's fine the way it is.

e^(πi)+1=0 · « **Reply #33 on:** December 04, 2008, 09:17 pm »

okay, so doing it automatically is rejected, but I think that if we can figure out a way to get the AI to do it, it should be done.

urkspleen · « **Reply #34 on:** December 05, 2008, 12:12 am »

good...the idea here was not to make the unit uber, just so it could use the weapons it already had...which currently it's to stupid to do...Yea for another good idea!

Mandalor Vipeer · « **Reply #35 on:** December 05, 2008, 01:22 am »

Maybe you could put a small tab with different formations on it. Kind of like the game Dungeon Siege if you've ever played it. You could put things like attack freely, most effective firing position or things like that. Again though, I support leaving it just the way it is. It gives the player more control over his army.

urkspleen · « **Reply #36 on:** December 05, 2008, 02:42 am »

once again, this fails to address what happens when the computer is playing against you as the rebellion...the best thing, like I said before, would be for the behavior of the AI that controls this specific unit to be rewired to act smarter, at the level that you would logical utilize a particular vehicle...

Mandalor Vipeer · « **Reply #37 on:** December 05, 2008, 02:51 am »

I still think it's fine.

urkspleen · « **Reply #38 on:** December 05, 2008, 02:53 am »

it's no fun to take down a huge battle platform with 1 squad of tanks because the thing is too damn lasy to fire with anything but it's leading turbolaser.

Mandalor Vipeer · « **Reply #39 on:** December 05, 2008, 02:56 am »

that's why I make it move. I don't wait for it to move.

urkspleen · « **Reply #40 on:** December 05, 2008, 03:06 am »

Quote from: urkspleen on December 05, 2008, 02:42 am

once again, this fails to address what happens when the computer is playing against you as the rebellion...the best thing, like I said before, would be for the behavior of the AI that controls this specific unit to be rewired to act smarter, at the level that you would logical utilize a particular vehicle...

Mandalor Vipeer · « **Reply #41 on:** December 05, 2008, 03:23 am »

Once again, I say it's fine the way it is.

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Author Topic: Gargantuan Firing (Read 807 times)