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[Mandalor Vipeer]

Was Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor a secret?

I say no because there were 3 or 4 documented accounts from several British contacts who had located the Jap fleet and relayed it to other contacts in Brtain who sent them to American anylists who then relayed them to the President. (F.D.R.) They were basicly ignored accept for moving the Aircraft carriers out of the harbor so they weren't blown up. There is documented proof of this.

[Sarcastic]

History shows us that they did know or had a vague idea.

There is still the matter that the States were neutral at the time. Might have assumed the British were trying to get an advantage but even that is crazy.

I'll stick with maybe.

Although it might come down to the commander being incompetent.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

Which leads to another point that yet again proves that we knew. F.D.R. was incompetent. He specificly pointed out on several (and if you review some of his speaches, you'll see this too) that the military needed to be tested. He never specified how in his speaches but his actions show it clear enough. And before anyone goes and defends him, look at the ways he took us out of the Depression and look at why we're headed back into one. They directly affect each other.

[Ceteral]

Depressions are a natural part of economy. It's not FDR's fault the American public refuses to be the goliath of production they once were.


There are a few things that take away from the idea that the Americans knew of the attack. One, their own intel lists the Japanese fleet as being on maneuvers, yes, but they are believed to be half way around the other side of the pacific. That's the American intel. Don't tell me we aren't too arogant to take a tip from the brits.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

That's completely bogus. Intel did not totaly report that the Jap fleet was on th other side of the world. Don't you do research before you speak? F.D.R. released to the public at the time that that was true, but experts have deemed that as fiction. The true reports were from the Brits who tried to save us, but no one was smart or brave enough to stand up to the president and we got attacked. It was all a ploy.

And most of the organizations that F.D.R. set up are the ones that are dragging us under now. Take the FDIC for example. And there are many more that I don't remember.

By the by, Happy Thanksgiving.

[Emperor Onasi]

Viper is right. Many of F.D.R's systems he put in place back in the 30's and 40's no longer help us as they did back then, but they hold us back. They worked for their current time, and they need to be revised and updated for a 21st century economy and nation.

[V]

Hogwash. They didn't work then, they don't work now. The Second World War got us out of the Great Depression.

But, back to the ,

From what I know, Japan had tried to notify the US of the attack, but due to time zone differences and bad intel, the warning came a few hours late.

[Emperor Onasi]

Why would Japan warn us of an attack? That makes no since...

[V]

A belief in their honor.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

I've heard about that too, but I've seen more about the reports form Britain. And just so you know, I didn't put it in the topic description, but the economical factors are part of the topic. And yes alot of F.D.R.'s organizations were pointless then too, but more are today than before. Take loans for example. People can take out loans when they don't have the money to buy something, then file for bankruptsy and never have to pay their amount back. My view is if you can't pay for it you can't buy it. Now with houses and the like I can see a loan. But other than that no. And all these companies wanting government help are using F.D.R.'s policies. 1.Ford, GM, and all the other companies in trouble are at fault not the Government (as much as I dislike them) It is their fault for not making cars that people like. And I guess Chrysler is in there too. If you'll notice, Mercedes isn't having that trouble because people like their cars and service. 2. Another reason people aren't buying cars from these places enough is because of service. All of the Chevy and Ford dealerships around here have the rudest employee's I've ever seen. It's like that all over the U.S.

[Peace Trooper]

how weird i just played perl harbor in blaseing angels and here is a topic about it and no, the attack was a complete surprise to america we had no idea it was comming

[Sergeant Lyeman]

I think if we watch Tora Tora Tora we can see what happened. The US was warned about the attack, but it took too long to translate it and Pearl Harbor happened

[V]

I've heard about that too, but I've seen more about the reports form Britain. And just so you know, I didn't put it in the topic description, but the economical factors are part of the topic. And yes alot of F.D.R.'s organizations were pointless then too, but more are today than before. Take loans for example. People can take out loans when they don't have the money to buy something, then file for bankruptsy and never have to pay their amount back. My view is if you can't pay for it you can't buy it. Now with houses and the like I can see a loan. But other than that no. And all these companies wanting government help are using F.D.R.'s policies. 1.Ford, GM, and all the other companies in trouble are at fault not the Government (as much as I dislike them) It is their fault for not making cars that people like. And I guess Chrysler is in there too. If you'll notice, Mercedes isn't having that trouble because people like their cars and service. 2. Another reason people aren't buying cars from these places enough is because of service. All of the Chevy and Ford dealerships around here have the rudest employee's I've ever seen. It's like that all over the U.S.

There are quite a few fallacies in this post. I'll start with this:

And all these companies wanting government help are using F.D.R.'s policies. 1.Ford, GM, and all the other companies in trouble are at fault not the Government (as much as I dislike them) It is their fault for not making cars that people like. And I guess Chrysler is in there too. If you'll notice, Mercedes isn't having that trouble because people like their cars and service.

First, they aren't using any policies made by FDR. They are using policies that have been in place since banks were established in America. You have Alexander Hamilton to thank for that. Second, the reason they are in such bad straights now is because they only made big cars. Why would they do that, you may ask? Well, it is what the American populace wanted. But, you may ask yourself again, why are big cars a problem? Well, those big cars we Americans wanted were the worst in terms of gas (or petrol for the Brits out there ) mileage. And what kind of shortage are we having now, have been for the past almost a decade? A gas shortage, that's what. Well, Americans didn't want to buy big cars anymore, because they would more than double the amount they pay in their payments for it in gas within two years. However, GM, Ford, and Chrysler only made those kinds of cars. Therefore, nobody bought their cars. And let's talk about overpaid leadership (though only briefly). The Big Three's CEO (as well as a few other key positions) is paid fifty times that of the average worker in the same company. Compare that to Toyota: only fifteen times. And, finally, I'll mention unions. On second thought, no, I won't. It's too painful. Michiganders out there, you know what I'm talking about (not just unions).

2. Another reason people aren't buying cars from these places enough is because of service. All of the Chevy and Ford dealerships around here have the rudest employee's I've ever seen. It's like that all over the U.S.

Is that so? You've personally visited every single auto dealer in the US? No? I didn't think so. Until you have a base for these claims, don't make them. Never assume.

And just so you know, I didn't put it in the topic description, but the economical factors are part of the topic.

So, in talking about current economics, we are also talking about the Japanese surprise attack on Pearl Harbor?

That's all I feel like discussing. However, I agree with these bits:

And yes alot of F.D.R.'s organizations were pointless then too, but more are today than before. Take loans for example. People can take out loans when they don't have the money to buy something, then file for bankruptsy and never have to pay their amount back. My view is if you can't pay for it you can't buy it. Now with houses and the like I can see a loan. But other than that no. And all these companies wanting government help are using F.D.R.'s policies.

I think if we watch Tora Tora Tora we can see what happened. The US was warned about the attack, but it took too long to translate it and Pearl Harbor happened

Good movie, that.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

My falacies come straight from government reports that you need to look up. (most of them are published in books at the library. Go read them) And all of them are not big cars. There are small cars that are mixed in as well as trucks, vans and other types of cars that no one is buying. Take the Ford F-150 for example. People don't want them very much. (there are stickers on the back pointing out that their transmissions can't handle pulling trailers when they have hitches on them. Stupid huh?) Do a little more research please. And F.D.R. put the part about government aid into affect (I can't remember what it was called at the moment) that's how they're trying to get aid now. This is a topic in a recent discussion by several groups including congress. Now about the big cars, I'm not saying that they weren't produced also. they were a big part too.

[V]

Government reports that are impossible for me to read, since you seemed to have made them up.

And all of them are not big cars. There are small cars that are mixed in as well as trucks, vans and other types of cars that no one is buying.

Think back a few years (this is when the mess really started, despite what others may claim). What were the Big Three making? Big cars (this does include vans, trucks, minivans, and other of that ilk). Do more research? Do your own. Mine is fine.

And F.D.R. put the part about government aid into affect (I can't remember what it was called at the moment) that's how they're trying to get aid now.

No, they're trying to get aide now through the 700 billion dollar "bailout". But that's another discussion.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

My research is not made up. It is published work that is in books and newspapers and magazines. You do have access to them. Wait a minute, you do live in the U.S. right?

[V]

Yes, I do. And if the research is published, then you must have misinterpreted it.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

Okay now that I've established that, I didn't misinterpret it because it's pretty plain. And as I was saying before, you do have access to it. It's in several magazines, newspapers and books that your local library most likely has or can get. Try looking for a couple3 and you'll find them.

[Ceteral]

Okay now that I've established that, I didn't misinterpret it because it's pretty plain. And as I was saying before, you do have access to it. It's in several magazines, newspapers and books that your local library most likely has or can get. Try looking for a couple3 and you'll find them.

Any titles that I can have that narrowed down to?

[General Morrell]

the Attack on Pearl Harbor was one of the worst surprise attacks on the United States.  At the time, Pearl Harbor was not as well equipped as some of the other military bases of the US.  One example is that it did not have any of the Japanese code-breaking equipment that Washington and the other US Pacific military bases had at the time.

Also, the US did not fully know about the full capabilities of the Aircraft carrier at the time, which the Japanese had figured out about a decade before anyone else.  The intel was pretty bad at the time, and would be nothing compared to what it is now, so when the US figured that the Japanese were conducting exercises with it's fleet, they assumed that that's what they were doing.

As for the Japanese trying to warn the US, it did not fit in with their military doctrine, which stated that a surprise attack would be better than declaring war and then attacking.

[The Ferral One (Jedi Ferret)]

If i recall, they did send us some kind of warning, but i didnt reach us until after teh attack started.

[Mr. Recluse, the Beta Tester(Greiv55)]

Actually yes there were clues about the attack given to the US...  Although not sent by the Japanese through communications.  Especially one such clue that was shown a few hours before the attack, the sinking of one of the several Japanese Midget submarines sent to Pearl by an American destroyer after the officers in charge spotted it trying to follow another American ship into the harbor.  And again within 1-3 hours before the attack the radar array on Oahu picked up the Japanese fighter and bomber group, although they thought the array was picking up a wing of B17 Flying Fortresses which they were expecting that same day(which based on what I read the B17s fell victim to Friendly Fire when the main contingent had arrived based on fears of another attack wave by the Japanese.)

Based on if all that is all been confirmed then the US Military base at Pearl knew an attack was imminent without realising it.  And on another note I read about a top-secret raid the US Military participated in less than a year before the Japanese actually attacked.

Also, the US did not fully know about the full capabilities of the Aircraft carrier at the time, which the Japanese had figured out about a decade before anyone else.  The intel was pretty bad at the time, and would be nothing compared to what it is now, so when the US figured that the Japanese were conducting exercises with it's fleet, they assumed that that's what they were doing.

That is true about how the US didn't recognise the full capabilities of the carriers YET they really only had the chance to try it three times to the fullest: Once in the Doolittle Raid on Japan(using aircraft NOT made to takeoff of a carrier), A second time in the Coral Sea, and the third at Midway.  The rest of the Pacific Campaign required the use of Both Carriers and the fighting ships of the Pacific Fleet(which after Pearl had only Two battleships throughout the war in the pacific(USS West Virginia and USS Tennessee, while USS Nevada took part in D-Day landings)

[Mandalor Vipeer]

the Attack on Pearl Harbor was one of the worst surprise attacks on the United States.  At the time, Pearl Harbor was not as well equipped as some of the other military bases of the US.  One example is that it did not have any of the Japanese code-breaking equipment that Washington and the other US Pacific military bases had at the time.

Also, the US did not fully know about the full capabilities of the Aircraft carrier at the time, which the Japanese had figured out about a decade before anyone else.  The intel was pretty bad at the time, and would be nothing compared to what it is now, so when the US figured that the Japanese were conducting exercises with it's fleet, they assumed that that's what they were doing.

As for the Japanese trying to warn the US, it did not fit in with their military doctrine, which stated that a surprise attack would be better than declaring war and then attacking.

Ok again I will point out that the British again showed us the potential of the Aircraft Carriers when they sunk the Bismark and most of the rest of the German fleet if you would like to add those in. I've already explained this twice so I wont take the time to do it again. Still, my point still remains. If these conflicts had not happened, I believe that the Carriers would be among the casualties of Pearl Harbor. And another point to add in is that if the potential of carriers had not been figured out, the four Jap aircraft carriers would not have been sunk at midway because the Americans wouldn't have had time to prepare them to do such a thing if they didn't already know it was possible.

And there were more battleships than just two that took part in the Pacific. Maryland, Washington(launched 1920-21). The North Carolina and the refitted Washington (Launched 1940). The South Dakota, Indiana, Alabama (Launched 1941-42). The Iowa, New Jersey (Launched 1942-45). Another was scheduled to launch as a battleship that would be the mightiest ship of all time. That was the USS Montana, but it was never launched. All of these ships that were built either before or after Pearl Harbor took part in the Pacific. And for those of you who want me to site some of my information articles, try the World Encyclopedia Of Battleships, and there are a lot of magazines that have articles about it in them. Popular science is the most recent one that I have read an article out of. Which issues, I don't know. I read these things and remember them forever. Another source is the History channel, The National Geogrphic channel, and The Discovery Channel.

[aceofhicks]

I say:

Peal Harbor was a complete surprise and America was lucky that her Carriers went there when the Japanese attacked. On the Topic, Tora Tora Tora is a good movie about Pearl Harbor

[Ceteral]

I say:

Peal Harbor was a complete surprise and America was lucky that her Carriers went there when the Japanese attacked. On the Topic, Tora Tora Tora is a good movie about Pearl Harbor

My grandfather crash landed the B-17 for that movie.



The problem with the whole thing here is that the topic is being lost in semantics. Did the Americans know the attack was coming? I still don't know which books specifically to look up information on whether or not they had bad intel on the location of the japanese fleet. So all I can go on is your word and what I have learned. Generally, I trust what I know, or in this case, think I know. So if you wouldn't mind letting me know which books specify that the fleet was known by US intelligence to be in the area, I will gladly concede the point. Otherwise, I remain unconvinced.

[aceofhicks]

My grandfather crash landed the B-17 for that movie.

That was him? Sweet.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

Okay I've already pointed out several credible sources. Read some of my other posts.

[aceofhicks]

I believe you.

[Ceteral]

Okay I've already pointed out several credible sources. Read some of my other posts.

You've said there are books and reports in libraries. Give me specifics por favor.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

The Battleship Encyclopedia. (not entirely correct name because I had to take it back to the library today) and if you look it up on sites like the history channel (don't have any URL's because like I said a while back, I completely redid everything in my computer.)

[Ceteral]

The Battleship Encyclopedia. (not entirely correct name because I had to take it back to the library today) and if you look it up on sites like the history channel (don't have any URL's because like I said a while back, I completely redid everything in my computer.)

The battleship encyclopedia lists improper US intel?

[Mandalor Vipeer]

It has a little bit of everything in it. And being that four major battleships were sank at Pearl Harbor, yes it does.

[Mand'alor Trebor]

the truth is that, while there was warning, we (the U.S.) did not act on it because we did not feel it a credible threat.

it was not used as a excuse to enter world war 2 as some consperiacy theorist claim.

the U.S. lost several iMPORTANT vessles in the battle that were important to any war effort that they were considering.

The idea that we knew about it and moved our aircraft carriers out to see is also absurd. most of the pacific fleet was  asisting the shipping routs from german subs

[aceofhicks]

the U.S. lost several iMPORTANT vessles in the battle that were important to any war effort that they were considering.

Yes, that the Arizona & Battleship Row.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

You see, most people that support my theory are not conspiracy theorists including me. This is just something that I have been trying to figure out, because I like to know the truth and the facts. So far I've seen more evidence to support my theory. And here we are back at square one with the discussion.

[Mir'ika]

Why would Japan warn us of an attack? That makes no since...

The true reason that the Japanese warned us is that the naval commander who was ordered to plan and prepare the attack believed it dishonorable.  It is dishonorable to attack an enemy unaware, which is why the commander sent a secret message to the US telling them of the attack...this was obviously ignored, as nobody trusted anybody right then.  So there you have it.  Hell, The US army is becoming dishonorable.  We start killing civilians for no reason other than "they might be terrorists".  We have fostered an atmosphere of fear and mistrust of everyone and everything.  It's all very 1984.

[Ceteral]

The true reason that the Japanese warned us is that the naval commander who was ordered to plan and prepare the attack believed it dishonorable.  It is dishonorable to attack an enemy unaware, which is why the commander sent a secret message to the US telling them of the attack...this was obviously ignored, as nobody trusted anybody right then.  So there you have it.  heck, The US army is becoming dishonorable.  We start killing civilians for no reason other than "they might be terrorists".  We have fostered an atmosphere of fear and mistrust of everyone and everything.  It's all very 1984.

The message arrived two hours late.

[SoulPain (FanEAW)]

(personnal thoughts)
1. honestly, i dont think that Washingtion was aware that it was on Pearl Harbor or they would have been prepared, i dont think they wanted some of their boats sinked...

2. why did they send out fleets IF they knew it?

(official documents and witness from my grandfather who was in the SAS)
1. Washington Intelligence Agency knew that the Japanese Empire was going to attack them, they just didnt know where.

2. by confirmations of Top Secret SAS documents and my granfathers witnesses, who was in the SAS, The SAS reported several times that (with spying) by determining the concentration of Japanese fleets movements, they were closing in to (two groups were being tracked) Midway Island and Hawaii, the last report (before the confirmation from Washington that came 2 hours late) from the SAS stipulating in the document from a decoded message from Japanese high command to German High command through morse code saying (traducted in english, of course): two or our fleets STOP going to attack STOP American occupied STOP midway island STOP and Hawaii islands STOP. but the report was somehow never got to Washington.

and also, as a rumor, or legend, the USS Arizona wasnt sunk, apparently, pictures that looked like it were took, but idk bout that lol.

[e^(πi)+1=0]

I've already written friggin essay refuting this, I'm not writing another one; but if you say that FDR in incompetent, than you say that Lincoln, who was in roughly the same position and drew similar results, was also incompetent. I think there are few men who could have led better during such a difficult time period; you guys act like the Presidency is an easy job.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

The president has been no more than an Icon to foreign nations for a while now. When the economy began to decline during the Clinton administration, (which everyone seems to overlook because it wasn't a major decline) I hear that Congress self elected a leader for them. From then on, the president has had an incredibly low percentage of the power he should have. It wasn't so back when F.D.R. was in office. I must apologize for starting on this subject, because it is an ongoing controversy that will never be solved until someone kicks congress's butt out and publicizes the TOP SECRET information that the people deserve to know anyway. Neither of the 2 topics will be proven until the government changes and the people react to the injustices being committed and ignored in this country. You can't argue with my foresight of something big happening anymore either, because I have the media and statistics on my side now. Look at the increasing gun sales, and the way religious people around the world are claiming disaster is on our door step, and the economy. This type of catastrophe happened before , at Alexandria, and it will happen again. I'm so sure of this because human's lack the ability to continue towards the future and still don't learn from their mistakes. When you look to the past for answers, you repeat the past mistakes as well.

[Django (sunfalcon)]

great you're a conspiracy theorist.  Let me guess the Government killed Kennedy and Martin Luther King.  The CIA is poisoning our water with mind control pills.  Obama is secretly a terrorist.  What else have I forgotten O_o

[Mandalor Vipeer]

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm pointing out things that have happened so far and correlating them wih the past. Upon the past I am drawing my conclusion and pointing out that people always repeat their mistakes. You want proof of this look in almost any history book and it will show you what I'm saying now. And no the government didn't kill Kennedy or Martin Luther King. And it's not a secret that Obama is in league with terrorists. He's admitted it several times and people don't listen and hold onto their arrogence while it drowns them. Do you watch the news? Stations that were die hard Obama supporters are now saying that they were duped and played for fools because he isn't offering the change he promised. I hate him and I'll scream it to his face because I'm not afraid of him. Shoot me and I win, let me live and I win. But I'm not getting into the new political stuff here because I get extremely radical with it and I will definately get banned if I do get into it. So anything posted to me (unless it goes to my personal e-mail) will be ignored if it is about Obama or any of the new political things not involving the topic. The topic is over Pearl Harbor and the Nations economy since F.D.R. (who I also dislike for reasons already spoken)

[Mir'ika]

OBAMA FOR CHANGE (Tha's all anyone is gonna have left after he's done picking our pockets...)

[Mandalor Vipeer]

Yes finally someone here see's the light.

[Mir'ika]

hallelujah praise the lord! i have seen the light!

But really, i have a father who is a huge WWII nut and even he says that we were warned.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

My gosh it's getting bright in here.

Anyway, I would lik to declare this topic closed, but I guess I have to wait for an admin to do it. This topic only brings up arguments that can't be solved. I'm sorry I ever brought it up.

[Mir'ika]

Don't be, viper.  This will open people's eyes more.  it will get more people to question what is accepted and what is being taught in our schools.  All in all, WIN in my book.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

I know it's important for people to question authority and not just follow it blindly, but obvipusly no one else sees that importance. That shows because I'm the only one to give any type of checkable sources to look up. But they still stick to what their schools taught them.


Most people nowadays lack minds of their own.

[e^(πi)+1=0]

look, just becuase you don't agree with wild groundless accusations doesn't mean you don't have a mind of you're own. Have you ever considered how stupid you are being if you are wrong. Of course not, becuase you're so sure that you're right. Let me give you some advice: taking everything you hear, especially from those you trust, with several grains of salt, and always seriously contemplate the possibility that you're dead wrong.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

I'm wrong a lot and when I'm wrong and there is proof I will admit it. I see nothing wrong with being wrong. It's just a lack of knowledge and then when you learn it, you no longer have that lack of knowledge.

And I don't trust anyone. If I wouldn't have seen the pictures in several books and websites, I wouldn't believe it Same goes for the reports. I don't think all those things are wrong.

That's why I research for myself, and try to research deeper than my opponents. Life is a competition get used to people like me, because I believe that if you don't fight for what you believe, you have no right to believe it. And I believe what I've been saying on this thread. And I tried to get an admin to close it so we could stop the argument, because neither side here can win, and I apologized for bringing it up. Again, I will ask to close this because it is now an argument that is pointless and cannot be resolved.

[SoulPain (FanEAW)]

this was about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, we are getting off topic here,

Basicaly simple, we never know if these top secret SAS documents are actually right (or any other top secret documents) cause we werent there, were not gods, but just giving out our own opinions here.

Officially, Washington was warned about a jap attack somewhere, doesnt mean in hawaii it was going to be.

if you watch the movie Pearl Harbor, it was pretty much like that, whereas the radar operators only saw a huge cloud...literrally. the japs were actually intelligent in their attacks, they knew that a B-17 bomber group practice run was going to return that day, so they used that to their own advantage. games of war may be fun but war itself isnt.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

B-17's would show up as a small blip. You ever seen a radar? This was a massive cloud. My brother is an air traffic controller. I know the difference between a small concentration of planes and a high concentration. As did they. I've seen the pictures, and it's oh so obvious.



And we weren't off topic. I was trying to end this topic before another argument started.

[aceofhicks]

Wow. It's the anniversary today. Hard to believe, eh?

[Mandalor Vipeer]

Yep. A perfect day to end this debate.