Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Yes

No

Maybe

[Mandalor Vipeer]

Was Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor a secret?

I say no because there were 3 or 4 documented accounts from several British contacts who had located the Jap fleet and relayed it to other contacts in Brtain who sent them to American anylists who then relayed them to the President. (F.D.R.) They were basicly ignored accept for moving the Aircraft carriers out of the harbor so they weren't blown up. There is documented proof of this.

[Sarcastic]

History shows us that they did know or had a vague idea.

There is still the matter that the States were neutral at the time. Might have assumed the British were trying to get an advantage but even that is crazy.

I'll stick with maybe.

Although it might come down to the commander being incompetent.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

Which leads to another point that yet again proves that we knew. F.D.R. was incompetent. He specificly pointed out on several (and if you review some of his speaches, you'll see this too) that the military needed to be tested. He never specified how in his speaches but his actions show it clear enough. And before anyone goes and defends him, look at the ways he took us out of the Depression and look at why we're headed back into one. They directly affect each other.

[Ceteral]

Depressions are a natural part of economy. It's not FDR's fault the American public refuses to be the goliath of production they once were.


There are a few things that take away from the idea that the Americans knew of the attack. One, their own intel lists the Japanese fleet as being on maneuvers, yes, but they are believed to be half way around the other side of the pacific. That's the American intel. Don't tell me we aren't too arogant to take a tip from the brits.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

That's completely bogus. Intel did not totaly report that the Jap fleet was on th other side of the world. Don't you do research before you speak? F.D.R. released to the public at the time that that was true, but experts have deemed that as fiction. The true reports were from the Brits who tried to save us, but no one was smart or brave enough to stand up to the president and we got attacked. It was all a ploy.

And most of the organizations that F.D.R. set up are the ones that are dragging us under now. Take the FDIC for example. And there are many more that I don't remember.

By the by, Happy Thanksgiving.

[Emperor Onasi]

Viper is right. Many of F.D.R's systems he put in place back in the 30's and 40's no longer help us as they did back then, but they hold us back. They worked for their current time, and they need to be revised and updated for a 21st century economy and nation.

[V]

Hogwash. They didn't work then, they don't work now. The Second World War got us out of the Great Depression.

But, back to the ,

From what I know, Japan had tried to notify the US of the attack, but due to time zone differences and bad intel, the warning came a few hours late.

[Emperor Onasi]

Why would Japan warn us of an attack? That makes no since...

[V]

A belief in their honor.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

I've heard about that too, but I've seen more about the reports form Britain. And just so you know, I didn't put it in the topic description, but the economical factors are part of the topic. And yes alot of F.D.R.'s organizations were pointless then too, but more are today than before. Take loans for example. People can take out loans when they don't have the money to buy something, then file for bankruptsy and never have to pay their amount back. My view is if you can't pay for it you can't buy it. Now with houses and the like I can see a loan. But other than that no. And all these companies wanting government help are using F.D.R.'s policies. 1.Ford, GM, and all the other companies in trouble are at fault not the Government (as much as I dislike them) It is their fault for not making cars that people like. And I guess Chrysler is in there too. If you'll notice, Mercedes isn't having that trouble because people like their cars and service. 2. Another reason people aren't buying cars from these places enough is because of service. All of the Chevy and Ford dealerships around here have the rudest employee's I've ever seen. It's like that all over the U.S.

[Peace Trooper]

how weird i just played perl harbor in blaseing angels and here is a topic about it and no, the attack was a complete surprise to america we had no idea it was comming

[Sergeant Lyeman]

I think if we watch Tora Tora Tora we can see what happened. The US was warned about the attack, but it took too long to translate it and Pearl Harbor happened

[V]

I've heard about that too, but I've seen more about the reports form Britain. And just so you know, I didn't put it in the topic description, but the economical factors are part of the topic. And yes alot of F.D.R.'s organizations were pointless then too, but more are today than before. Take loans for example. People can take out loans when they don't have the money to buy something, then file for bankruptsy and never have to pay their amount back. My view is if you can't pay for it you can't buy it. Now with houses and the like I can see a loan. But other than that no. And all these companies wanting government help are using F.D.R.'s policies. 1.Ford, GM, and all the other companies in trouble are at fault not the Government (as much as I dislike them) It is their fault for not making cars that people like. And I guess Chrysler is in there too. If you'll notice, Mercedes isn't having that trouble because people like their cars and service. 2. Another reason people aren't buying cars from these places enough is because of service. All of the Chevy and Ford dealerships around here have the rudest employee's I've ever seen. It's like that all over the U.S.

There are quite a few fallacies in this post. I'll start with this:

And all these companies wanting government help are using F.D.R.'s policies. 1.Ford, GM, and all the other companies in trouble are at fault not the Government (as much as I dislike them) It is their fault for not making cars that people like. And I guess Chrysler is in there too. If you'll notice, Mercedes isn't having that trouble because people like their cars and service.

First, they aren't using any policies made by FDR. They are using policies that have been in place since banks were established in America. You have Alexander Hamilton to thank for that. Second, the reason they are in such bad straights now is because they only made big cars. Why would they do that, you may ask? Well, it is what the American populace wanted. But, you may ask yourself again, why are big cars a problem? Well, those big cars we Americans wanted were the worst in terms of gas (or petrol for the Brits out there ) mileage. And what kind of shortage are we having now, have been for the past almost a decade? A gas shortage, that's what. Well, Americans didn't want to buy big cars anymore, because they would more than double the amount they pay in their payments for it in gas within two years. However, GM, Ford, and Chrysler only made those kinds of cars. Therefore, nobody bought their cars. And let's talk about overpaid leadership (though only briefly). The Big Three's CEO (as well as a few other key positions) is paid fifty times that of the average worker in the same company. Compare that to Toyota: only fifteen times. And, finally, I'll mention unions. On second thought, no, I won't. It's too painful. Michiganders out there, you know what I'm talking about (not just unions).

2. Another reason people aren't buying cars from these places enough is because of service. All of the Chevy and Ford dealerships around here have the rudest employee's I've ever seen. It's like that all over the U.S.

Is that so? You've personally visited every single auto dealer in the US? No? I didn't think so. Until you have a base for these claims, don't make them. Never assume.

And just so you know, I didn't put it in the topic description, but the economical factors are part of the topic.

So, in talking about current economics, we are also talking about the Japanese surprise attack on Pearl Harbor?

That's all I feel like discussing. However, I agree with these bits:

And yes alot of F.D.R.'s organizations were pointless then too, but more are today than before. Take loans for example. People can take out loans when they don't have the money to buy something, then file for bankruptsy and never have to pay their amount back. My view is if you can't pay for it you can't buy it. Now with houses and the like I can see a loan. But other than that no. And all these companies wanting government help are using F.D.R.'s policies.

I think if we watch Tora Tora Tora we can see what happened. The US was warned about the attack, but it took too long to translate it and Pearl Harbor happened

Good movie, that.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

My falacies come straight from government reports that you need to look up. (most of them are published in books at the library. Go read them) And all of them are not big cars. There are small cars that are mixed in as well as trucks, vans and other types of cars that no one is buying. Take the Ford F-150 for example. People don't want them very much. (there are stickers on the back pointing out that their transmissions can't handle pulling trailers when they have hitches on them. Stupid huh?) Do a little more research please. And F.D.R. put the part about government aid into affect (I can't remember what it was called at the moment) that's how they're trying to get aid now. This is a topic in a recent discussion by several groups including congress. Now about the big cars, I'm not saying that they weren't produced also. they were a big part too.

[V]

Government reports that are impossible for me to read, since you seemed to have made them up.

And all of them are not big cars. There are small cars that are mixed in as well as trucks, vans and other types of cars that no one is buying.

Think back a few years (this is when the mess really started, despite what others may claim). What were the Big Three making? Big cars (this does include vans, trucks, minivans, and other of that ilk). Do more research? Do your own. Mine is fine.

And F.D.R. put the part about government aid into affect (I can't remember what it was called at the moment) that's how they're trying to get aid now.

No, they're trying to get aide now through the 700 billion dollar "bailout". But that's another discussion.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

My research is not made up. It is published work that is in books and newspapers and magazines. You do have access to them. Wait a minute, you do live in the U.S. right?

[V]

Yes, I do. And if the research is published, then you must have misinterpreted it.

[Mandalor Vipeer]

Okay now that I've established that, I didn't misinterpret it because it's pretty plain. And as I was saying before, you do have access to it. It's in several magazines, newspapers and books that your local library most likely has or can get. Try looking for a couple3 and you'll find them.

[Ceteral]

Okay now that I've established that, I didn't misinterpret it because it's pretty plain. And as I was saying before, you do have access to it. It's in several magazines, newspapers and books that your local library most likely has or can get. Try looking for a couple3 and you'll find them.

Any titles that I can have that narrowed down to?

[General Morrell]

the Attack on Pearl Harbor was one of the worst surprise attacks on the United States.  At the time, Pearl Harbor was not as well equipped as some of the other military bases of the US.  One example is that it did not have any of the Japanese code-breaking equipment that Washington and the other US Pacific military bases had at the time.

Also, the US did not fully know about the full capabilities of the Aircraft carrier at the time, which the Japanese had figured out about a decade before anyone else.  The intel was pretty bad at the time, and would be nothing compared to what it is now, so when the US figured that the Japanese were conducting exercises with it's fleet, they assumed that that's what they were doing.

As for the Japanese trying to warn the US, it did not fit in with their military doctrine, which stated that a surprise attack would be better than declaring war and then attacking.